You are cheapening a former collection of masterpieces with your “get your name in a book” competitions. Lost all respect.
I would feel worse about it if Robert Jordan hadn’t done it too. And GRRM. And Stephen King. And Asimov. And Anne McCaffrey…
Did those authors auction off naming rights, though? They’ve all Tuckerized friends/family, but that’s not the same thing.
Many of them did them as charity auctions at various conventions, I believe. It has a long tradition at sf cons.
I tried to list only people who had specifically put in fans, not just people they know.
RJ did it in a pretty limited way, though. That’s why I defended it at first, but IMO it was a little gratuitous in Towers of Midnight .
What do you mean, limited? Pretty much every name Jordan used was adapted or straight lifted from our modern world or mythology.
I was specifically talking about fan names. Even fan names don’t bother me so long as they’re smooth as the parallels all are…
…but in Towers of Midnight , there were names dropped in when it seemed there was no practical purpose to name the characters in question.
Like, the characters showed up, got named, went away, and never came back. For example…
“Two Maidens—Surial and Lerian—guarded the open doorway to the hallway…” and another example (cont)…
“They stepped through the gateway into a small alley, guarded by two Maidens—Lerian and Heidia…” In cases like that…
…it seems like name-dropping for the sake of it. Though I’m sure the effect is exacerbated for those in the know.
RJ named a ton of characters with no practical purpose who never showed up again. Brandon’s intent was to follow that practice.
Sure, but RJ also had a ton of unnamed characters, and IMO didn’t name them awkwardly like those two examples I gave.
I’m not sure if you noticed, but there was a lot of discussion about this after Towers of Midnight came out. Many people noticed it.
I didn’t notice the discussion, and those examples don’t look at all awkward. But it wouldn’t surprise me If RJ did a better job.
Brandon also has plenty of unnamed characters. I’m just saying RJ’s use of random named characters wasn’t particularly limited. [And of course, no one ever said that it was. His use of fan names was limited.]
The reason why they’re awkward is became the naming of the characters is a sideline to what’s actually going on, rather than…
…serving a purpose in the narrative. It’s a subtle difference, that could be easily solved with a tiny bit of effort. (IMO)
Seems to me RJ had a lot of named characters with no particular narrative purpose. Others may have a different impression.
You misunderstand me. Characters can have all ranges of purpose. That’s not a problem. But how is the name worked in?
No, I understand you just fine.
But in any case, there’s no point being defensive about it. Either the criticism is important to Brandon or it isn’t. *shrug*
I suggest that the names stuck out more when Brandon did it than when RJ did it largely because readers knew what Brandon was doing…
…whereas the writing process was much more of a black box for RJ.
Didn’t I already suggest that? But again, it could easily be smoother with a little effort.
And that’s a difference Brandon is fine with. Other things he tries to do more like RJ but doesn’t quite because he’s not RJ.
Yes, we’re aware that Brandon is fine with this difference. Sometimes it’s best to err on the side of caution, when possible.
And as I said, the examples you gave look smooth enough to me.
Yes, but you defend nearly everything Brandon does. We’re talking about something that bothered several fans, not just me.
Again, either the criticism matters, or it doesn’t.
“could easily be smoother with a little effort” is very easy for a non-writer to say.
Something very easy to demonstrate, even for someone who doesn’t write much. (I do write some, by the way.)
If it’s too difficult to make smoother, then just don’t name the characters it’s not necessary. If the best you can do is…
…throw the names in a parenthetical, then perhaps the characters simply don’t need to be named.
So you’re saying RJ never threw names in a parenthetical. That may be.
I don’t mean to defend for the sake of defending, but when someone complains about something Brandon does that RJ did, it’s irksome.
I understand. I wasn’t even trying to compare to RJ, except the quantity of fan names used. I felt like it was quantity…
…that led to situations like the two examples I gave. A desire to fit in more fan names.
The word “irksome” is that often used in daily English or a more history/fantasy word used in such lit? (work related inj)
It’s a fairly common word.
For the most part I’d say Brandon is only naming characters he thinks RJ would have named. Not to fit in fan names just to fit in.
He goes to the list only when he needs a name. He doesn’t pick out names first and then try to fit them in somewhere.
Except for the top auction winners of course.
I find it hard to see how names were needed in those two places.
If he thinks RJ would have named them, then that counts as “needed.”
Even in later drafts sometimes Maria or Harriet would say “give this character a name” when Brandon hadn’t already.
Some people complained about names Brandon made up in The Gathering Storm . You can’t please everyone. :)
You can’t please everyone, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to do the best you can. Especially when you constantly…
…go out of your way to reassure fans that it is important to you to uphold this legacy. Small details do matter.
That line is often used when you’re doing something that will please some and upset others. This isn’t such a case.
Yup. Giving random characters names is a small detail that matters to Brandon because it mattered to RJ.
I’m not complaining about giving random characters names. You keep trying to paint it that way, though. Why?
You keep trying to paint this as something RJ didn’t do. Why? Maybe you can prove he didn’t name characters in parentheticals.
I think the way Brandon is doing it is fine and basically the same as the way RJ did it. You disagree.
Did you just ask me to prove a negative? Really? LOL. Maybe you can find an example where he did the same thing.
It’s not worth it to me to try that.
If you’re wondering why some fans are getting increasingly frustrated with this process, then this is why.
We have bent over backward to be supportive of Brandon in cases where our support was dubious. But the minute we have…
…a criticism of any sort, we get defensiveness. Not ‘filed, taken into consideration’. But ‘you’re imagining things’.
And yes, this [re: Peter’s last tweet] is becoming increasingly clear as well.
You see this as a much bigger deal than me, clearly.
WoT? Clearly. This issue? Worth a tweet to Brandon in the hopes that he will take it into consideration.
This issue. And maybe he will.
I think we can just concede that the author has the freedom to do what he pleases with the naming of characters?
I think everyone is aware that Brandon has that freedom. That’s not the point.
Terez27’s avatar does say “Serious Business”—are you surprised she’d see it as a bigger deal? lol
Good point.
In my mind it’s still something where Brandon is doing pretty much what RJ did.
It’s not my job to go through every paragraph in the series to try to prove that.
No one ever said it was. Apparently it’s your job to get defensive, though. Or is it? Next time, just make a note of it.
It sounds like you only want a non-response to anything brought up. “filed, taken into consideration” is a non-response.
It can be. If the issue isn’t important to you/Brandon, I’d rather a non-response than a pointless argument.
I don’t think that saying “This is basically what RJ did” is defensiveness. My first tweet to you just asked for clarification.
Yes, and I clarified, and you dismissed my clarification as irrelevant. Instantly.
Once I got the clarification I gave the “this is basically what RJ did” answer.
It takes two to make a pointless argument. I guess you’re saying if I think something isn’t important, I should say nothing.
I apologize to the folks who follow both me and @PeterAhlstrom. Done spamming your feed now. ;)
I’m sure it would have been a much different conversation in person. Twitter strikes again.
That’s fine. Made my walk with the dog a lot more interesting!
Don’t you need to watch your step when you do that, instead of watching your phone?
I posed the “irksome-question” to let you know (in a subtle way, I hope) that people were “listening” out here.
heh, I was well aware from the beginning, and I’m sure Peter was as well.
Next time you can just say “Get a room, you two!” ;)
I thought some of RJ’s were fairly obvious. Paitr Conl, Jac, Bili, Joslyn, Jaim, Dannil, and 5 spellings of Alice.
Ya, though in this case the adapted forms weren’t what the discussion was about. Some people have complained about those though.
[re: this tweet ] I don’t think he’s saying that… Think he just doesn’t see it the way other readers evidently do.
I do think Reader Response is the most relevant type of literary criticism.
Definitely. But felt that whole argument was a big misunderstanding. Felt bad.
More like a difference of opinion on a very minor issue.
This isn’t a minor issue because a very large number of fans have a serious problem with the auction just on principle—Brandon responds to some of them every now and then on Twitter (such as the guy who started this conversation; I didn’t @ him in my response to Brandon for a reason), and Brandon’s responses are included here—because it favors fans who have more money (the more you donate, the greater your chance of being chosen, though the minimum is a small amount). When you have an issue that is already touchy like that, you have to be careful in how you handle it. Luckers and I were among Brandon’s biggest defenders when he announced the name contest for Towers of Midnight . We pointed out Guybon before Brandon did. The complaints were even louder after the book came out, and at that point, the choice was much more difficult to defend. This type of usage is also a big disappointment to those whose names were chosen; they thought they’d won something exciting, but they’re written in such a way that makes their names seem an afterthought. I doubt anyone expected to be a major character, but a little smoothing would have gone a long way.
I do apologize for coming off that way. It’s really not my intent. Criticism is important to feel free to share.
Specifically I personally give your comments a lot of weight because I know you know your stuff.
Thanks. We know that Brandon has a tough job, and an awkward situation at best. But it’s awkward for us too, in many ways.
It’s a little difficult to be someone who knows more about WoT than the guy who is writing it, aside from the secret stuff…
…and to have to watch it all unfold from a rather passive position. I’m sure you understand. ;)
Point taken.
Chuckles, you can say that knowing about Terez’s “Gawyn will kill Rand with Callandor theory”? Poke-poke…. ;o) [Not sure where Felix got the Callandor bit from.]
Theories and a thorough working knowledge of what’s actually in the books are separate things.
Note that in many of these cases, Harriet said to me “What are their names?” when I just wrote “Two Maidens.”
Harriet always pushes me to be more specific. You’ll find it in The Gathering Storm too, where I wasn’t using fan names.
Yeah, I understand that much—and sometimes, it works. I imagine that not all examples of Harriet asking…
…for such ended up with examples like I gave, where the names are thrown in parenthetically.
In the fan criticism I mentioned earlier, these cases were always the ones fans noticed. Even at DM…
…where the subject comes up every two weeks in a new thread, mentioned by different new users. [I should have said ‘came up’, because I was thinking about the period of a few months after the book came out, not recently. Also, crosstalk after this because Peter types faster than me so I was unprepared for the more stately tweeter, Brandon.]
The examples you gave—though I only looked briefly—could have certainly been done better.
Probably, they should have just been “*** and *** went and did such and such” rather than the parenthetical.
Right, something along those lines. And again, those of us ‘in the know’ were probably bothered more by it.
That’s more of a prose issue than anything else, though—an area where RJ was very strong and I’m relatively weak.
Yes, I’ve noticed you have mentioned that before . Which is why I thought it worth a tweet. :)
We’ll try to keep an eye on the issue. We should have more time on A Memory of Light than we did on Towers of Midnight for polishing.
I don’t *Think* we’ll have a ‘shoehorn in fan names’ issue, since I have just left placeholders for names I need.
Every one of them is a name I’d have had to make up, but instead, I’ll adapt a fan name.
Still, it’s worth a look-over specifically for this issue.
Oh great. Now that Brandon responded, how much do I need to put in the Twitter archive post?! >_<
LOL. See, we share this burden. It should create a bond between us! And if you want to skip it I’ll cover it. You can link ;)
Nah. I think there’s a good splitting point I can use to keep it relevant to Brandon’s reply. You can include whatever though. :)
Before you can link you both have to reach/open yourself for saidin / saidar . And who will control the weaves? ;)
I said ‘bond’, not ‘link’. And I wasn’t talking about the Warder bond either. ;)
Really look at the earlier tweet here then. You typed bond in a previous tweet also.
I meant link to the website. *sigh*
I know, but the best work was when men and women worked together with the power of the WoT ;)
The fan names never hugely bothered me, but I do agree with Terez that they are noticeable.
I think because they feel more like blank spaces in the narrative than colouring in the scene by…
… Naming those present.
I’m somewhat more troubled by the treatment of fan criticism. This is about the fifth time I’ve…
…seen you do this Peter, with the same line: ‘It’s a problem in reader appreciation, not the writing.’
And not everyone has Terez’s tenacity or confidence, and thus allow themselves to be silenced.
And given I’ve seen you both cite the value of the lack of fan criticism in judging Brandon’s efforts…
…yeah…It’s a little disconcerting.
Maybe I should back off.
I think Brandon has recognized it, by responding. And we have played the silencers before, haven’t we?
Peter is in a tough spot. I can easily say, “Yeah, I did a poor job on that one. I’ll watch for it.”
Peter, however, doesn’t want to put words in my mouth, or apologize for me.
Instead, he seeks to defend me, since he knows I won’t see most people’s posts or be able to respond.
It may surprise you, but we felt the same way after the release of The Gathering Storm , despite not being fans.
I empathise, I just don’t sympathise. Not after the way you’ve both held up a lack of fan [criticism]…
…as validation for your work on the Wheel. It’s a circle, the lack of criticism held up as proof…
…whilst the act of criticism is met with sweeping dismissal that most would never argue.
Point taken as well.
Makes me curious which criticisms you’re referring to. I wouldn’t mind if you emailed them to me.
So I can be aware of which ones the fans feel we aren’t listening to.
Will do. :)
I think both Luckers and I have really tried to strike a balance over these last few years between…
…defense for the sake of support and criticism for the sake of criticism. I will email you.
(In other words, most fan response seems to fall under one of the two categories.)
I will admit most things I care about aren’t things most fans would care about. Maybe scholars.
But that’s assuming scholars ever take an interest in the WoT. ;)
Terez seems a little full of herself and I resent the fact that she seems to think she speaks for all fans.
Most fans love the books for what they are & don’t pick them apart to show off.
[hours later, after a nap] Who ever said anything about me speaking for all fans? Now you sound like the guy who said he ‘lost all respect’…
We’re aware that most fans don’t give a shit about the fine details. I never claimed to be most fans.
These kind of criticisms I find ridiculous and over the top—Guess I’m just too casual.
It’s only ridiculous and over the top when it turns into a stupid argument.
I woke up on the wrong side of Twitter today. Sorry about that.
“Even he—Jori, bonded to Morvrin—managed it.” #wotrr ( Lord of Chaos Chapter 29, p2) For @PeterAhlstrom. ;)
Remind me what brought it up.
I favorited his tweet, and moved on.
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