Curious: First mention of the Fisher King concept happens when Rand is dreaming, still half-sick, in the back of Bunt’s wagon.
Is this our first Lews Therin moment? Bunt wouldn’t have mentioned it, and neither would have Ishamael. Unless it’s actually something Thom said.
I assumed was a True Dream, including Thom’s connection to the queen, and Rand & Tam with the sword.
But the first Lews Therin moment was in chapter nine when Rand recognized Shayol Ghul (and maybe Ishamael too).
I’d say Ishamael recognition is a fact in chapter nine. There are some nice comparisons with the prologue.
Well, you probably have a point there. Though you might argue that this is a shade of Lews Therin speaking to him, for the first time.
I might, but I wouldn’t. :D It’s more interesting to me the other way, and Rand didn’t dream Lews Therin’s dreams much.
He remarked on the strangeness of it in The Path of Daggers before Lews Therin came back (after having been chased away by Cadsuane).
Wait. What?
I remembered it wrong. Lord of Chaos 19: ‘Lews Therin’s dreams. That had never happened before, not dreaming the man’s dreams.’
In A Crown of Swords 41 while Lews Therin is gone, Rand still hears the voice in a dream.
Oh, I see what you’re saying. (I think.) Is your argument this: “Lews Therin doesn’t talk to Rand in dreams. Therefore, this isn’t Lews Therin?”
I think deep down her argument is probably more ‘Lews Therin doesn’t talk to Rand at all’. ;)
Whether Lews Therin really talks to Rand at all or not, this would be quite atypical & strange. As Thom? Why?
Why would Lews Therin speak as Thom? The moustaches baby, the moustaches.
Curious. So who do you think is speaking to Rand the Fisher King words, if it’s not a Lews Therin memory?
It’s a dream. Why does there have to be a ‘real’ ;) person involved?
But I do appreciate the hint. :) [That is, the hint that Lews Therin was also one with the land, and was aware of it. This might be what Brandon was getting at with his Easter egg thing.]
I don’t normally dream things that happen to be word-for-word true prophecies. Rand’s not a Dreamer. He got the info somewhere.
Now I’m going to cry. :( Why can’t Rand be a Dreamer?? So chapter nine was completely fabricated by Ishamael? That is weird.
None of the other dreams influenced by Ishamael were anything like that. How did he create all of those people in Tar Valon?
Why would Ishamael first prevent Rand from reaching Tar Valon, and then force him to go to the Tower? Makes no sense. :(
Lol. I’m not sure if you’re being serious or not. Is there some theory on Rand being a Dreamer that I should know?
I’m being serious. There’s a hint Asmodean’s warding might prevent True Dreams. Also…
Egwene was guided to it, but Rand had no one to guide him if he was a Dreamer. And everything in The Eye of the World nine was true.
Either it’s Lews Therin, it’s something someone told him in the real world, or it’s Ishamael giving him the info.
Maybe he had heard The Karaethon Cycle from Thom at fireside on the way to Baerlon, though. Would make sense.
Well, not on the way to Baerlon, since he mentions them for the first time in Baerlon. But maybe on the Spray .
I’ll entertain an argument that it’s basically ‘known’ information, or that Thom mentioned it.
Did you see my cultural idea? That it might be Rand’s subconscious—like the way everyone knows the Dark One’s name?
But it really seems like a memory, and we’ve never seen people mentioning it, while naming the Dark One we see.
I’ll look up answers on this one for sure; right now, I’m just speaking by instinct. But I read the Fisher King concept as…
…coming from Lews Therin/Rand’s subconscious and being fed through Thom’s mouth as Rand’s mind fit it into the dream.
I’m also pretty sure Rand’s not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.
But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel’aran’rhiod spontaneously.
But I’ll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene’s thing.
Also, didn’t Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn’t HER thing any more? :p
And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel’aran’rhiod . But I just want a male Dreamer dangit!
Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.
It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel’aran’rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training…
…specifically to fight like that in Tel’aran’rhiod , while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.
haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.
Why do all the prophets have to be female? Foretelling I can see because of the taint, but the rest? Except Perrin.
The Thom dream used to make me think I was missing something, or maybe a deleted scene. Very odd.
Also, even with the taint seems like we should have had a male Foretelling by now, or a dreamer. Something.
Well, out of fondness, I’ll let you know that I DO know of at least one male (other than Perrin) who can see the future.
lol. The male Aelfinn?
Dang. You’re too clever. Okay, then, I promise you there’s actually a man—human—who meets your requirements.
In retrospect, it seems most likely that RJ did in fact pare down Thom’s earlier conversation about the prophecies (in The Eye of the World Chapter 13, or in another place), not wanting to give too much away. The dream in Chapter 34 should have been a recollection of what Thom had told him. It’s possible that Brandon was correct and it had something to do with Lews Therin, but I find it unlikely for many reasons (some covered in the conversation). Also worth noting is that in the previous chapter, during Rand’s fever dreams, Thom mentioned the Black Ajah, which had not previously been mentioned to Rand on screen. Also, this hint from Brandon was the first of many concerning the male prophet; the other clues make it pretty clear that Moridin is a Dreamer.
If you are viewing this on github.io, you can see that this site is open source. Please do not try to improve this page. It is auto-generated by a python script. If you have suggestions for improvements, please start a discussion on the github repo or the Discord.